According to my (unofficial) records,  sail numbers 6001 – 7000 were issued in 1963-66;  so the best guess from that data for your boat is late 1963 or early 1964.

But if you are on this forum you are presumably a member of the Association,  in which case our Archivist can let you have a digital copy of all our records for the boat.   That should include her original measurement form,  assuming that she has been registered  –  and most boats have been,  although there are a few exceptions.   That measurement form should give you her date of build,  and her builder.

The digital record will also include anything else about the boat which has crossed the Association’s desk during her lifetime.

Oliver

that’s curious Oliver. Unless numbers were issued differently in the states, my supposedly 1964 GP has hull number 5942. I wonder if she is actually older?

I have only limited knowledge.

My primary source is data which was published on a previous Forum run by the Association around a dozen or more years ago;   that data appeared to make sense,  and I accepted it as gospel,  and put it into a spreadsheet.

I do know that some individual clubs,  and possibly some International Branches,  have issued their own numbers which are distinct from the international numbers issued by the Association.     The best known example of that today is Sri Lanka,  where the Ceylon Motor Yacht Club run their GP14 sailing and have their own set of numbers;   but these are generally single digit or two digit numbers,  so they are easily distinguished from the international numbers,  and particularly so when one finds such a number on an almost brand new boat!

I would not be surprised if the North America Branch issued their own numbers,  although I don’t know that for fact,  but if so I would expect the numbers to be very much lower.

For what it is worth,  my spreadsheet shows sail numbers 5001 – 6000 as being issued in 1962-3,  so your supposed date is only about one year different from my records.

I do have two personal “hooks” which help to validate that spreadsheet.   The first is that I bought no. 4229,  Tantrum,  Sills-built,  second-hand in 1967 at (I believe) about 5 years old.    So she would have been built somewhere around 1962,  which tallies well with the spreadsheet showing that numbers 4001-5000 were issued in 1961-2.

The second is that a fellow member of my club in the late sixties had a brand new Sills-built GP14 which I much admired,  Eroica,  and if I remember correctly her sail number was 8031.    That tallies well with the spreadsheet showing numbers 8001-9000 being issued in 1968-71.

However you could ask our Archivist (contact via the Association Office) for a digital copy of whatever records we have of the boat corresponding to your sail number;  then you can see whether those records appear to tally with the boat which you own.

Sometimes with boats of this age a degree of detective work is the only way to get to the bottom of the mystery;   and it is not always possible to do so.

And there are very occasional tantalising exceptions to the pattern.   Numbers 11972 to 11992 were used as spare numbers,  and issued out of sequence.

Occasional owners of new boats were not interested in racing them,  so they did not register them with the Association,  and therefore no number was issued.   Sometimes a later owner then registered the boat,  in which case the date of the hull number (or sail number) could be significantly later than the build date of the boat.    However this is fairly rare.

Much more tantalising,  in the very early days numbers were issued en bloc to clubs,  and the clubs then issued them to individual owners.   Not all these early numbers were in fact issued to owners,  and I have heard it on good authority that in the seventies one of these unissued numbers was still available from the Royal Northumberland Yacht Club,  at which point it was snapped up by one of the doyens of the class  –  possibly Cubby Ackland,  but I can’t confirm that  –  who then built a “vintage” GP14,  absolutely to the original design and in period with the number,  and registered her under that number.   So somewhere there is a “vintage” 1970s boat with a 1950s sail number,  and built as a 1950s boat.

And then I understand from Gareth Morris,  who owns no. 7,  that there is a long running dispute as to which of two different boats is entitled to that number.   And we are indeed talking about vintage boats from 1951,  not modern boats from Sri Lanka.

Oliver

• This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by Oliver Shaw.

it may well be that Spark is older than I thought. Here in the US, the individual states have their own laws as to what needs to be registered with the government and what does not in regards to boats. There is no blanket policy until you get a boat large enough to be registered with the United States Coast Guard for international sailing.

As such, my boat originally came from the State of New Jersey, where I currently reside. The laws here state that a boat the size of a GP14 needs to be registered and taxed by the state, except for vessels used solely for racing use, which was Spark’s original use. Her second owner took her to the State of Pennsylvania which does not require a small boat without an engine to be registered and taxed. This means that for the first 50+ years of her existence, my boat did not need to officially exist. With this in mind, it is possible that one of the original owners had forgotten exactly when 5942 was built, as you stated, I am only off by roughly a year. It is also possible that her number was issued before she was built also. Having been built from a kit produced by Bell Woodworking and assembled locally, I am more willing to bet that is her history.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Arthur.

There were many builders,  both professional and amateur.

Some of the headline names amongst the professionals of (I think) that period included:   Bell Woodworking (of course),  R. R. Sills (regarded by many as the Rolls Royce of GP14 builders),  Moores of Wroxham,   very probably Jack Holt,   Fenn  & Wood,  (Bossom’s Boatyard,  I think),  and with a big question mark on date both Derek Jolley and Don Marine.  However these latter two may possibly be too recent.   And I am sure there are many others,  who simply don’t immediately come to mind at this moment  –  although I feel sure that they should do!

And then there were any number of amateur builders,  many of them working to very high standards;    perhaps the majority of them built from Bell kits,  but there were also some who chose to build from just the plans and the raw timber.

Oliver

Mine also has these:

Bell Woodworking.

And the “builders plate” from the company that assembled spark

I don’t know for certain,  but I doubt that the number would have been assigned with a construction kit.   Apart from the very earliest boats,  where blocks of numbers were allocated to clubs who then assigned them to owners,  I strongly aspect that numbers were not allocated until a member joined the Class Association.

In some instances that may have been during the build process,  particularly for amateur built boats,  and in that case I am not sure whether the number would be assigned as soon as requested (once the new member had joined the Association) or once the completed boat was officially measured.

The one personal detail that may just possibly shed some light on this is that in 1965 or ’66 I acquired a half share in boat no. 3239.   She was amateur-built.  For whatever reason we were under the impression that the boat did not have a class certificate,  so she had to be officially measured at that point.    There are some gaps in the argument here;   I don’t know whether we asked the Association whether they held a measurement form for her  –  I was only just starting my involvement with the Association back then,  and quite possibly didn’t know to ask the question!   But if there was no measurement form for her extant,  then it implies that the registration number had been issued at some time prior to the boat being measured.

Beyond that,  so far as I personally am concerned,  all is guesswork!

Oliver

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Oliver Shaw.

is the centreboard on 6399 not on centre? Something does not look right there in regards to the trunk and that plank

As a first step,  join the Association and request a digital copy of our records.

That may well provide the information you need.

If it doesn’t,  we may perhaps still be able to help in some way,  depending on just what the French authorities require.   I am unfamiliar with French legislation,   but I would hope that as the world’s leading authority on the GP14 (and the copyright owner for the design) the Association might just possibly be able to negotiate with them to find a way round the difficulty.   But I hope we don’t need to go there.

Oliver

I have just spoken to Julie,  in the Office,  and when she replied to you earlier she was not entirely clear what help you wanted.

However she can advise that your boat was built by Fenn & Wood,  in 1968.   She will now send you a PDF file of the original measurement form,  done by the builders.

I hope that this may be either exactly what you need to produce to the French authorities,  or at least an acceptable substitute.

Hope this is helpful,

Oliver

Gilles,

Have you received this PDF file,  and will it do the job for you?

Do please let us know how you get on with the French authorities.

Oliver

Excellent.   I am very glad that we have been able to assist,  and I wish you every enjoyment of your boat after all your hard work.    She looks good in the photo.

On a separate issue,  when I spoke to Julie in the office I gathered that you had applied for temporary membership of the Association.   Now that the immediate problem has been resolved,  could I ask you to please now consider standard membership,  on a more permanent basis,  if you have not already done so.

The Association is the primary body to support your use and ownership of your boat,  but to be able to continue to do that most effectively we need the “clout” and authority of a reasonably large membership base,  and to support our activities we also need membership subscriptions.   (And I think,  although I am open to correction,  that as an “overseas” member your subscription is set at a much lower level than UK members.)

In return,  as well as contributing towards the support of your class of boat you get  –  at least  –  the support of the whole Association,   access to technical expertise,  an excellent Members’ magazine twice per year,  and the camaraderie of the Association.

If and when geography permits,  which I appreciate will be less often for you than for UK members,  you also have the opportunity to participate in a wide range of events;   these include racing at all levels from absolutely top flight down to club events,  cruising events,  and vintage boat events.    If you are ever able to participate in such events you will be very warmly welcome.

I hope that what we have been able to do for you so far may perhaps be an encouraging taster for membership of the Association on a more permanent basis.

Oliver

Gilles,

Excellent.   You are warmly welcome.

Oliver

Welcome aboard, Gilles! As the ever esteemed Oliver has demonstrated, this is the place for all things GP14.

Hi Gilles,

I’m pleased to hear there’s another GP14 sailing off the Brittany coast. Let me know if you ever venture north into the Cotes d’Armor!

Nick

It is interesting to read your blog post and I am going to share it with my friends.

Herbew Fentos

Looks good.

But where depth of water permits,  you will find less tiller load  –  and less load on the rudder blade  –  with the rudder blade further down.

The original design was for the blade to be angled aft,  and although I am not sure quite how far aft it went I don’t think it was as much as on your photo “c”  (and I realise that on photo “b” the blade is fully raised so I presume that this is because you were in only a few inches of water at the time).    However by about the time your boat was built  –  certainly at some point in the late sixties (or just possibly the very early seventies) but I cannot verify the precise date  –  the rules were changed to permit the blade to drop to fully vertical,  and this is a significant improvement.

The modification is simple,  just a matter of very slightly cutting back the shoulder on the blade,  and I feel sure that I made the modification on my then GP14 before I bought my first yacht,  which was in 1972,  because after that I largely moved away from the GP14 in favour of the yacht.    My best guess on date is that I did the modification towards the end of the sixties.

Hope this helps,

Oliver

• This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by Oliver Shaw.